Here's the spot for the second week of postings:
Your required post for this week is a quote reflection. Choose a passage from this week's readings. Quote it and discuss it. Please respond to at least two of your classmate's postings!
I look forward to reading your thoughts!
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Ooh...I actually remembered to do this. Finally! Here's my quote:
"Hannah straightened the shawl that draped the couch and lay down. She dreamed of a wedding in a red bridal gown until Sula came in and woke her" (73).
To be completely honest, this part completely puzzled me. I didn't understand Morrison's purpose for informing the reader that Hannah had dreamed about a wedding and the color of her wedding dress. I did not know that it was a part of the second "strange thing" that happened. Even when the part about Hannah being on fire came up, I made no connection between the dream and her fiery death (probably because I did not know it was significant to begin with). When Eva finally explained how the dream was a foreshadowing of Hannah's death, I was quite surprised. I do not understand how a wedding can mean death (I see it as the beginning of a single entity from two originally separate ones) though how the red dress means fire is self-explanatory.
Even though this foreshadowing really did not help me suspect/realize Hannah's looming death, I do believe that by having Eva explain it, greater emphasis was put on the event, but more importantly, on what Eva said after she reflected on how the dream foreshadowed her eldest daughter's death: that she believed that Sula was entranced by her mother's death-by-fire due to interest. This little twist prompted me to focus more of my attention on Sula and her actions up to this point in the book. Although Sula has not played an extremely significant role thus far, I am sure that Morrison has much more in store for her.
My quote is this:
"She would fuck practically anything, but sleeping with someone implied for her a measure of trust and a definite commitment."
Aside from the obvious eye catching phrase using a provacotive term. I mean, no one can tell me they didnt double take on this line in the novel. So much emphasis was put into this short line in order to portray Hannah's slutiness if you will. She could have said have sex with and used the word anyone, but instead she said "fuck" and "anything". This truly put Hannah's personality into a reality check for the reader. It also reveals her lack of commitment and trust. That's one way to deal with the death of a husband. Id be pretty pissed though if i were her dead husband looking down from heaven on her.
Although it may come off as such, I don't believe that Morrison's intention was to make Hannah seem "slutty" but rather detached in an emphatic way. But yes I would agree that if I were her husband, I'd be pretty disappointed and ashamed as well.
Quote:
"The water darkened and closed quickly over the place where Chicken Little sank. The pressure of his hard and tight little fingers was still in Sula's palms as she stood looking at the closed place in the water. They expected him to come back up, laughing."
This was quite a sad turn of events. Perhaps death was more frequent than it is in this day and age. Also, those deaths must not have been made into such a big deal as they would here seeing as how the girls got off and no one investigated anything. Or maybe perhaps that would be because of their status in society and lack of money? It probably wasn't as important as feeding the children that were still living. They must have had to deal with tough times and therefore had to be tought to survive. It explains why Eva "got rid of" Plum. Mothers had really difficult decisions to make back then!
I also like how Morrison described the water as "closing over the place where Chicken Little sank." She's not afraid to use a lot of words which is sometimes better than the authors who want to impress readers with brief and elaborate vocabulary.
In regards to Erik's quote:
I did do a double take when I read that particular line due to the use of the word "fuck." It isn't a word that is seen too often in literature (though it has become a large part of everyday conversation...) and I can't deny that I wasn't taken aback by it. My picture of Hannah was more than a little tainted just because of Morrison's provocative diction, but it sheds even more light on Hannah and the person she is (who Morrison meant her to be). I admit that I do not much like Hannah, mostly because of her carefree outlook on sex and influence on Sula, but every character has a purpose.
In regards to Trinh's quote:
I quite agree that Chicken Little's death was a sad turn of events as it was so unexpected. In that scene, the worst I thought would happen was Sula and Nel leaving Chicken Little in the tree, but for him to die, well, I was surprised. His death happened so quickly and I expected him to come back up, just as Sula and Nel did.
I believe that Morrison used Chicken Little's death as a connection to emphasize Shadrack's institution of National Suicide Day. Chicken Little died at such a young age and it was so unexpected; the reason that Shadrack declared January 3rd National Suicide Day was to eliminate the stealth and unexpectedness of death. It is impossible to do such a thing and Chicken Little's untimely death reflects that.
I thought it interesting how Morrison brought about Chicken Little's death at the time when Sula and Nel were starting their maturation from being children to being teens (and into adulthood). The loss of innocence was distinctly conveyed as an innocent little boy died at the hands of two girls who had just started losing their childhood innocence. Morrison was really very clever here.
My quote is:
"It'd be true and I would have done it, would have let him if I'd've had the room but a big man can't be a baby all wrapped up inside his mamma no more; he suffocate. I done everything I could to make him leave me and go on and live and be a man but he wouldn't and I had to keep him out so I though of a way he could die like a man not all scrunched up inside my womb, but like a man."
(72)
This quote was made in regards to Hannah's "Do you love us?" question to Eva. Eva responded with this monologue about her son plum nad his death(murder). As we discussed in class, I feel that Eva killed her son in order to save him in a way. If he were to stay on his current path Plum would continue to live his day listening to records and doing drugs; taking advantage of his family for food and shelter. What eva did was save him from a wasted life and somehow make up for it in his afterlife. Eva called Plum's death like one of a man. I'm not ttally sure what death by fire represents but I know that for the family it's better that he died that way instead of drugs. It's better to end his misery now then making all of them suffer.
In my opinion I wouldn't kill my child, but show him or her how it's not right to live with no ambition in life. You can't just stay isolated in a room with music and drugs and expect to live a happy life. Death is not the way, but Eva wanted to cut Plum's life short in order to prevent future pain and suffering
“Eva couldn’t see Hannah clearly for the tears, but she looked up at her anyway and said, by way of apology or explanation or perhaps just by way of neatness, ‘But I held him close first. Real close. Sweet Plum. My baby boy.’”
I felt that this quote showed a more compassionate side to Eva. Throughout the story, Eva has been depicted as a strong woman that doesn’t show too much emotion. However, in this quote, one can see how much Plum means to her and how much his death hurt her. Eva felt as though killing Plum was the right thing to do for him and, at first, the reader doesn’t see how hard it is for her. However, in this quote, she opens up and Morrison allows the reader to see a weaker Eva.
I also found it interesting that Hannah found Plum’s death to be of such a great importance. I understand that they are siblings, but Hannah had never shown an interest in Plum before this event. It seems as if Morrison used this event to show the bond between the family. Although Plum, Eva, and Hannah don’t seem to interact much, they have a very strong connection that seems to be beyond actions and words.
Quote:
"They knew anger well but not despair, and they didn't stone sinners for the same reason they didn't commit suicide - it was beneath them (90)."
I chose this quote because I liked the way it sounded and it allows for a lot of insight into the people of the Bottom. The fact that they did not know despair well, despite all of the negative things that had to have been happening to them at the time is a great feat, and I think it suggests a strength about them that can only develop from the background that they have had to endure.
It seems as if they are the kind of religious people who believe that humans cannot judge other humans; only God can. And therefore just as it is shameful to resort to killing yourself it is also shameful to stone sinners when you well know that you have sinned yourself.
When it comes to what the others have chosen...
I agree with Marcie about weddings typically carrying happy, positive vibes, but by now we know that these characters are not normal by our standards; they are not like us. One of us probably would not light fire to our own yards; none of us girls in the class would probably treat men the way Hannah did. So it almost makes sense that her wedding took on a different twist as well.
In reference to Erik's quote, I cannot understand how women can be so obvious about their sexual activity. Have they no pride or shame? Have they no sense of dignity or humility? But it does follow the pattern of the Peace women being really extreme characters who take to men in their own way. And Trinh too makes a good point that although Hannah may have slept around and everyone knew about it, she was not exactly running around in the streets making sure everyone knew; she showed some discretion when it comes to that.
Quote:
"Finally she stood up and allowed Nel to lead her away. He said, 'Always.Always.' What? Sula covered her mouth as they walked down the hill. Always. He had answered a question she had not asked, and its promise licked at her feet."
I found this particular passage a little confusing. It presents a different side of Shadrack, kind of creepy yet comforting i guess you could say. Its strange and a bit creepy that he answered Sula's question without her even asking, yet when i read it, it seems to have given her at least some comfort in a sort of way. Although i don't understand the meaning of 'Always' i believe that it forshadows events to come in the future. Perhaps Shadrack will play a large role later on, which is why he was introduced in the beginning with such detail. I suppose i'll keep reading to understand.
HAHA!
i agree with erik!! i'd be pretty pissed if i were her dead husband too...i found this particular quote quite blunt and a little obscene, it really does show us Hannah's true side. I thought it interesting that Morrison used the particular word "fuck." It put a heavy emphasis on Hannah's carefree attitude towards sex and men.
“Without ever a pat of the hair, a rush to change clothes or a quick application of paint, with no gesture whatsoever, she rippled with sex. With her same old print wraparound, barefoot in the summer…she made men aware of her behind, her slim ankles, the dew-smooth skin and the incredible length of neck.”( 42).
I think it's amazing that Hannah used reverse tactics to grab the attention of men. She used the bare essentials to highlight her naturally beautiful features, which is the opposite of what society (both then and now) teaches will draw the attractions of men. This parallels with many actions Hannah does that are the opposites of what society accepts.
The mere fact that Hannah sleeps around with many men who are not hers is in itself contrary to the generally accepted morals of society. Hannah also commits suicide, which is viewed negatively as evidenced by the lack of participation of National Suicide Day. Overall, Hannah strikes me as an individual trying to escape and be free from what the world around her tells her she should do/be. Which would explain Sula's seach and conquest to be her own self-she followed her mother Hannah's ambition.
I also didn't understand the quote that Sarah posted. I still don't know what Shadrack means by saying "Always," but it must be something good or exciting because Sula referred to it as a promise that she seemed to be looking forward to. The question she silently asked also confused me. All I can come up with in explanation is that he is telling her she can visit him anytime - probably because he probably doesn't ever have anyone come over.
I agree with the opinion that Eva (or any person for that matter) has no right to kill another individual. Even if there is no hope to help an ill person recover, in my opinion it is God's right and no one else's for someone to die. If they want to continue a destructive lifestyle until it eventually kills them, then that is their chioce and they should live with it.
In response to Trinh's post...
I also found it very interesting that no one cared to find out who killed Chicken Little. Death occurs so frequently throughout the book that I suppose it doesn’t matter who killed the person; what matters is that the person is dead. This is very different from today’s society. People in the Bottom had to move on with their lives and did not turn back.
When I first read the quote that Darwin chose I didn’t understand and I had to go back and reread that part. I liked the imagery that Morrison uses in this section because it helps the reader to visualize how Eva feels. I also agree with Darwin when he said that she did this to save him. I don’t think I would’ve burned my own son, but I can understand why she would feel like she saved Plum. Death seems to be a very natural thing in the Bottom.
"Their conviction of Sula's evil changed them in accountable yet mysterious ways. Once the source of their personal misfortune was identified, they had leave to protect and love one another. They began to cherish their husbands and wives, protect their children, repair their homes and in general band together against the devil in their midst."
It's a little funny how easily Sula brought the town together. As they say you can't appreciate what you have until its gone, or threatened... i suppose.
Personally I appreciate everything I have to the full extent and thank God for it whenever I remember to pray haha.
Hmmm am i using a quote from something too far ahead? haha, i guess thats what happens when one waits too long before posting. Sorry sorry, if it is.
I wonder if the town is right about Sula, not of course about her being the devil, but about her being evil. She does seem a little unhuman, for her emotional attatchments for example. Otherwise its just that whole like mother like daughter thing.
~Response to the fitchue guy
Yes, i love that quote, its like a clown at a funeral. And by that i mean, its eye-catching and funny, in an otherwise well, kind of boring, dramatic, and irritating book.
Sula annoyed me to the point that it ruined my day. But yea i'm not going to get into that because its off topic.
~In response to Jannelelelle...
I also found that quote to be interesting, and very strong. It really does show the character of the people at bottom, but is also a contrast to my own quote.
I actually really liked Janelle's quote, i was actually thiking about using that quote. I thought this quote to be quite inspiring and uplifting because of the strength and ethnics it presented. I agreed with much of what janelle said, especially about them having to endure so much, and believing that they should only be judged by God.
But that whole thing about humans should not kill humans because they don't have the right to judge...it kind of confuses me now that i think about it because at the point in the book we're at now, Sula is being judged so harshly by the rest of the town. But i suppose its a little different because the quote was talking about killing others, where as no one in the town would actually go and kill Sula...they'll just wait for her to pass on her own.
Anywayyyy, i really liked that quote, and it really caught my attention and gave me insight on the people living in the Bottom.
hmmm wasn't tehre supposed to be another posting? well anyways Ill respond to people since I havent done it yet.
In regards to sarah's posting: Since I read the explanation of Shadrack's reason of saying "always" tonight, I have to say...that I'm still confused why he said it. The reason behind it was that it would comfort her. I don't know about you but I would just be confused. Maybe an alternative saying like "calm down" would be just fine and less confusing. I do understand though that Shadrack cared for Sula as his only visitor and was one of the few (if any) that felt sorrow for her death(i guess well discuss this tomorrow)
janelles quote was interesting. I didn't choose it myself because i didn't understand it. Really, I read it over and over trying to figure out what it meant but still had difficulty. I'm guessing the people at the bottom didn't beleive in killing one self or each other(?). They felt that since everything happened for a reason, despair was useless.
"They waited in vain, for no lightning no thunder no rain came." (73)
Here we can see the water theme from How to Read Literature Like a Professor. The people of Bottom were unable to be cleansed. They had gone through the death of Chicken Little and Plum within only a year or two. Everyone yearned for the dirtiness of the past to just melt away with the cleansing of the earth-- to be able to escape.
It would be completely human to think this way. Even to loose the life of one. Chicken Little represented innocence and purity and was so young when he had to go. Though Plum was not the apple of the town's eye, he too was a small creature that needed to be held. I think it is sad for so little hope to come around in such an eventful time.
In response to Trihn:
My first reaction was shock. I couldn't believe that Sula nor Nel bothered to jump in and save Chicken Little. "The pressure of his hard and tight little fingers was still in Sula's palms..." He was right there and they let something so wonderful slip away without a trace. This was clearly the death of their innocence.
I was thinking what you were as well. Is death that common among the people of those times? It must have been just the black community, or maybe just with more emphasis. To let a child with no signs of maturity yet just disappear from the face of the earth like that. How depressing.
In response to Sarah:
When I read the quote I didn't see the words as comfort. I guess my mind was still lingering in the grass with Nel and Sula because I thought it was a sexual reference. I thought that "always" was more like an "You can always come here. I'll be waiting" in a creepy child predator kind of way. I let the perspective of the town come to me and nothing else. I thought of the clean house as only an expression of sophistication.
In regard to marcies quote, i completely agree with her. It paints such a vivid image that really catches the attention. Who thinks of a wedding in red, and furthermore red that will symbolize your death. I suppose in that time death was death for many women, especially those like Hannah who live a carefree life. Ahah moment, marriage who restrict her and kill her. got it.
To trinh's comment, i believe that it was indeed a double read due to the sad and unbeleivable events that are going on. It seemed as if it wasnt a big of deal as it would be today. He played such a small role and yet had and portrayed an important impact. The vivid imagry was depressing, to think of an innocent carefree little boy drowning is simply something of disgust and regret. I suppose this means Morrison is doing her job.
"The second strange thing was Hannah's coming inter her mother's room with an empty bowl and a peck of Kentucky Wonders and saying, 'Mamma, did you ever love us?' (67)
I instantly fell in love with this paragraph in the book. The fact it was used to begin the chapter/section indicated that the rest of the chapter would involve Hannah and Eva's relationship with each other. That assumption was correct because it compared and contrasted the two women. They are in fact alike. They use men for there own needs and truly only care for themselves. Hannah admitted that she didn't "like" Sula, but only "loved" her because she's forced to.
This is reminiscent of my own relationship with my mother. Except, I have a feeling that she never loved me and doesn't even like me. This quote is important because it shows the importance of a parent's love is to a child's development. Due to the fact that both mothers didn't like their children, both daughters grew up never knowing the importance of loving another human being.
In response to Marcie's post:
Don't feel bad because I didn't quite understand the "strange things" when I first read about them either, nor the second or third time I read them. I got so frustrated I eventually continued reading past where I stopped to repeat and was able to connect the dots. Yes, the red dress and immolating once self to death is self explanatory, but as for the wedding being used to foreshadow it makes perfect sense to me.
You simple have to think about it cynically (which we all know I'm best at XD). What is death but one's own personal hell that we create with another person, or new beginning to a life of torture. In that sense it is easy to understand why a wedding dress was used to signal her upcoming doom. Or if you wish to assume even more, her death was caused by her getting married and having Sula, so that Sula really is the death of her.
Response to Darwin's comment:
I think I was absent that class because I don't remember that discussion, so I will input my response now. As for the quote itself, it is interesting how Eva is always looking out for the best interest for her kids, at least in her mind. The death by fire seems to be a favorite of the Peace family, but symbolically speaking, dying in a sea of flames is the way many a slain hero are remembered, and thus is why Eva chose to kill Plum in such a manner. Traditional viking funerals include the send off of the warrior's body in a raft with a torch or such attached.
Although, I would disagree with your ideology about what to do if a child has lost their path. In my opinion, if the child can't find the path on their own, they must either stay on their circular path or be killed because of their uselessness. I guess Eva decided to take the latter. Even if it was my child, I'd kill them, unless they were my only heir, then I'd have another before I kill them. Sadistic as it might be what's best for society is best for you, even if it involves a little sacrifice.
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